July 15, 2023 21:15 S1:E5

15 Minutes With Legendary Colorist Peter Doyle – The Color Timer Podcast

Welcome to the Color Timer Podcast. I am your host,

Vincent Taylor. This is the

podcast where we speak to professionals who work

with color. Today we're speaking

to a man who needs no introduction, Mr. Peter

Doyle. Peter is a colorist who has

worked on everything from the Lord of the Rings

trilogy, Harry Potter, very

recently Creed 3, a beautiful film. One of my

favorites also is the Tragedy of

Macbeth. This is the first episode I

recorded. I've kind of pushed it back a

little bit because it was a bit clunky, certainly

not because of Peter. I was

very nervous and you'll see it in the interview or

hear it in the interview. I

did the best I could. Once again I'll be using the

15 minute sand timer to keep

the conversation focused. Actually you'll see in

that I didn't even know where to

put the color timer at that stage. I think it's

right next to me or something

like that. It's all a bit over the

place but it's a great conversation and

really worth listening to the way that Peter

articulates the work that he does.

He's a very very interesting fella so I hope you

enjoy it. Take your seats

because the hourglass is about to turn. We are

entering the world of the

micro podcast. Explore the craft,

creativity and science of professionals

who use color to tell stories.

Welcome to The Color Timer with Vincent Taylor.

Peter, welcome and thank you for taking time out to

have a chat to me. Thank you.

It's good fun to be here. I've developed this

little idea and I've got my little

color timer here to make it all very dramatic and

to keep our chat within the

15 minutes. We'll see how we go. Are you ready?

- I'll pretend I'm on Jeopardy.

I'll send you a list of prizes later. Alright well

here we go. I've officially

turned the color timer and the first one is a

pretty simple question. How

would you explain your job? Yes I

changed the color of moving images with

the goal of matching shots to

match together so that they have a

continuous sequence and then use

color to imply a time of day and a season

summer winter and then using shading

and modeling and shadows enhance the

set and the architecture so that it reads within

the lenses and reproduces

and then use whatever you can think

of to enhance the body language of the

actors and hopefully the

performance. How would you distinguish

between craft and creativity? Yeah

craft is really the what and how and

creativity is why in summary. And

are you conscious of that balancing

act or is it just all kind of intuitive? Oh yes but

particularly in the field of

grading a lot of clients aren't

quite sure how to kind of interact with a

colorist or how to actually explain what they want

so that the technology can get

a little bit overwhelming and then just depending

on the type of personality and

how you approach your craft it can be you can allow

the technology to kind of

take over the creativity and there's

not too many clients that react very

positively to the use of like

very technical terms so it's always a

balancing act of explaining quite

technical words in a very emotional way

and I think that's actually part of the

responsibility of a colorist is to

create an environment where the

filmmakers can explain what they want

and feel that they're actually

understood using their own language and

not necessarily have to be or assume that they need

to understand what a tone

map or a gamma is. Yeah and I

find that as well - to get that out of

people's heads without kind of overwhelming them

with all the technical mumbo jumbo.

So here's the setup you're about to begin a new

project and who starts speaking to you

about color? The director the

cinematographer? Yeah typically it's a

director sorry typically it's a director of

photography or the DP then

we'll talk and then he'll introduce me to the

director and then we'll go there

sometimes that's reversed there'll be a director

who would like to use me and

then they'll introduce me to the DP and then

sometimes there is a studio or a

producer that will try a bit of a blind date and

see if we all get along and

then see how it goes from there. And

when they do speak to you about color

how does that work do they give you references and

if that's the case how do

you interpret that I mean how do you pull the

sensibilities from a reference

as opposed to just copying those

references? Yeah but it really breaks

down to whether there is a -- so there are some DPs

that I work with that will just

present me the script as soon as I

have one and it's expected to have a

discussion and an opinion or then there are other

DPs that sometimes the scripts

actually don't exist there's just a beat sheet so

that that's a little more

ethereal about what's discussed and

interestingly it's almost the more

expensive the film is or the higher the budget the

less likely there actually is

a script but that's another discussion. So in terms

of explaining what they want

to do again it will depend if I've

worked with the team before at which

point we will have kind of established our own like

little language and set of

references if it's somebody that

we're working with new there's really the

encouragement to just have a stream of

consciousness and just use as many

references and as languages as possible so that we

can slowly just develop the

language unto ourselves so that it's a bit like

when kids are kind of playing

together certainly not going into the

like the Lord of the Flies type feral

but they start to develop like their own like

little language and I consider

grading is very much like that certainly the more

experienced DPs and the very

experienced directors will have a

kind of common language and there is an

industry language but first-time

directors may not necessarily have that

language and I think that's absolutely fine it's

just a it's actually good fun

to kind of build a new language. Yeah I've got it

I've got it I don't normally

do the quote thing but I really love

this quote and I thought it might be an

interesting one for you so I've got

written down so the artist Andrew Wyeth

who I love his painting so much he said, "If one

could only catch that true

color of nature the very thought of it drives me

mad." And that provokes this

question do you think that we can only truly

experience color or do you think

we can capture it and reproduce it? Well I think

unless you're building a truly

immersive environment or

immersive experience color is you will by

definition be decontextualizing the color so if you

are if you create a scene

and then try to reproduce it by

definition you have now decontextualized

it from the you know the four other

senses so you won't smell it you won't

feel it so unless you're doing

smell-o-vision or something and then

then you just have the the technical

considerations which you actually have

no control on which is light and chromatic

adaptation and then you have

metameric failure so no matter what

the reproducing media is that you choose

that there will be compromises and

then the last is in fact the cultural

responses that your imagery will be

invoking so to reproduce a color is

extremely dependent on A) the environment and the

context with which you have

captured that color but then you are reproducing

that color so you know you

have this almost arrogant assumption that the

viewing audience will in react

to that color culturally the same way

that you do. I mean you yourself have

worked in the Asian markets quite a lot so the

whole reaction to green and red

is very different to our Western

environment and I think that the best

example on a very very simplistic level is the

reproduction of a wedding in

terms of photos is a completely different

experience back, in say, the

80s and 90s if you chose Kodak stock or Fuji stock

so I think it will always be

a reproduction because unless you're trying to

build a completely immersive

environment. That's that's fascinating like those

other factors of course they

come into play you know that's that's that's

amazing metameric failure what

is that? It's in simple terms that

the reproduction of color will look

different depending on the lights that it's

reproduced the most famous would be

like a black party dress depending

on the fabric will look magenta maybe

under sunlight whereas it will

look tungsten the inside and it's also

dependent on people so two people

can view the same -- if you have like an

organic pigment a red will reproduce and be

received as red by kind of both

people if that red is reproduced on

say an OLED or a narrow band laser

projector different people will

actually receive that and - perceive the

red as in fact different versions of red and that's

sort of one of the problems

with laser projectors at the moment. That three

people can all sit in the

same room and look at the same image but actually

see the colors as slightly

different and because that doesn't

necessarily happen in nature as such

because you're not reproducing it it becomes a

problem I mean it's a huge

consideration say in the car

industry for you know the colors of cars but

it's becoming quite a thing now with the move to

laser projectors and then you

have like Dolby Vision's answered by

having six primaries and the parker

projector so that that all means that to just

reproduce a color can get a little

tricky.

This this prompts another question in my

brain we can do different

things with color grading all right we can do so

many different things why is

it that the color grade can can

continually be different? Why doesn't it

ultimately go you know what I've seen that look

before I've seen that look

but the work you do everything you do I go, "Man

that's a different look again."

how can there be so many variables for a look?

well I guess I I'm personally

really driven by 'Why' as opposed to an homage is not

to do an homage I think is

a great technical exercise and it's

actually really good fun and it's also a

very good way to learn and to

practice and to again actually just teach

yourself to be able to get back to why. The

challenge there is that you can be

perceived as in fact being somewhat technical so

it's almost like you have

to do that in the background or in fact be a closet

techno nerd so in terms of

the different looks that's because I

don't really approach it as a look it

really at least on the more what I would consider

the more successful grades I've

done it's really being approached from a very

political and a very contextual as

pretentious as that sounds from a

viewpoint as in if for example tragedy

Macbeth - when Bruno and Joel made the approach

and it was like we're gonna

do Macbeth and aha okay and we're gonna do it

black and white it's like

okay and then because we had developed a shorthand

over the previous films it was

like okay are there any kind of

buzzwords and the buzzwords was really

were really minimalist pure and free of sentimental

or homage like artifacts it

wasn't to feel vintage in any way and

then the last word from Bruno Delbonnel,

the DP, which was echoing the

words of Joel who was echoing his own

adaptation was it's all about the rhythm so if you

ask why we take say something

like so why does Macbeth look the way it does?

It's not about well it looks

like so Joan of Arc or any like the classic black

and white films it's more

like why did we get there and the core or the

political or the contextual was

that Joel was completely enamored with the

rhythm of Shakespeare's writing

and then that became an adaptation in

terms of the script so therefore the

Fran and Denzel were delivering their lines with

that in mind because it was

all about the rhythm and then

likewise that then became part of the body

language of where they move and then Bruno was

interpreting that rhythm and

the blocking so that they were like waves and so

forth so then if I take the

concept of rhythm or rhythm is a sine wave or a

triangle wave and therefore

that's light so therefore it's shadow

and therefore you can simply say it's

like a gamma curve or an S so that so when I say

why it's not like a petulant

child just saying why why why it's more like to

just keep what is the essence or

the kind of what was the

intellectual attraction but to this particular

project by the core filmmakers which is you know

typically way back to you know

the script writer and what is the story? So then if

the story is all for example

we take inside Llewellyn Davis which all in Ethan

you know why did they write

this story well the why is about

sadness and loss so then then then that

means that you can then come up with your own

interpretation of what is

sadness so then and loss so for example I just

interpreted loss as well there's a

loss of color and a loss of life so what would

happen if you like lose the

color but within the discipline of well it's set in

the 60s and our memory of

60s and obviously the very famous Bob Dylan album

cover walking up the street

was a black and white but the original photo was

color so it then actually

becomes quite a technical theme but that's where

the kind of contextual and

the philosophical comes into it so that that's

perhaps why I would like to think

my grades tend to be very different

because I'm not overlaying the same

technique that the technique is is truly what it is

it's technique. But if you go

after the story to ask why I then work with you

know the person who's lighting

this thing and to help them reproduce that light

then then I think that that

will take you somewhere that feels a little more

holistic and a little more

in a funny way it feels a little more obvious as in

well of course that's how

it should look.
- Man I'm just going my

friend said to I told him about the the

idea of doing the podcast he goes what are you

gonna do in the sand timer runs

out and you're on a really good vein of going I

know I don't know and and now I

feel like I'm in this dream and I don't want to

wake up because this is freaking

amazing hearing all this and and I've got so many

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